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peeks |
Anub'arak Heroic 25 |
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Mortos79 |
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Alright so from what I've been reading the general best strat is to have a warrior tank stack the very most block value gear that is available and tank all
four adds, heres the main post i've been reading on the EU wow forums and generally a very viable strat.
NOTE: THIS STRAT WAS PRE 3.2.2 AND IS ONLY VIABLE USING TWO BLOCK SET TANKS INSTEAD OF JUST ONE. edit: nevermind, its still somewhat viable http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=10920982122&sid=1 "Yeah, at least for any guild that downed the twins. Fast answer : get a warrior to tank the 4 Nerubian Burrowers (maybe a paladin can do it too). Long and argumented explanation : What are the difficulties of the anub'arak 25 hm encounter ? In p1 tank 4 Nerubian Burrowers that buff every other burrower in a 12 yard radius http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=66129 and stack a debuff on the tank http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=67847 In p2 kite the Pursuing Spikes http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=65922 (did any guild managed to do it without at least one Hand of Protection per phase 2 ?) In p3 same as p1 + heal 5 random raid members which will take a 6k dmg per tick dot for 18s + beware of any member that as not a sufficient selfheal to overcome the minimum 250dps boss aura http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=67630 (in HM it is 30% per tick, not 10%) + heal each tank for at least 12k hps more because of this Leeching Swarm + kill the boss before the enrage timer Of thoses difficulties, the biggest one is to tank the 4 Nerubian Burrowers. Let me explain : Each burrower has 728k hp and hits every 1.5s or so for ~3k a tank, when they are alone. (~2000 dps without avoidance) They stack a +30% physical damage debuff on the tank, so, the more he has burrowers, the more he will have the full +300% damage. Each burrower attacks 100% faster for every other burrower within 12 yard. So if you take 1 tank for 2 burrowers, he will take 3000 * 4(+300% from stacks) * 2(# of burrowers) * 2(attack speed buff) when the debuff is stacked at 10. Tanking 2 burrowers results in a 20 to 25s period with 10 stacks every 45-50s. The tank must mitigate 32k dps. If he has 60% avoidance, it's a good 12-13k dps, with a lot of spikes. The p3 main difficulty is to dps those Nerubian Burrowers while dpsing the boss for a lot more than what it heals himself for. The boss generally heals himself for 75k hps. Because of the enrage timer, you have to dps it for at least 110k dps. You have 3 tanks to heal, and 5 random players in the raid who will take a dot. So top guilds generally bring 7 healers and 3 tanks. Conclusion : You have to sustain 110k dps on the boss with only 15 dd (7400 per dd), while also dpsing 4 burrowers with 728k hp every 45-50s. Because we have to maintain a very high dps on anub, the 4 burrowers must be very close to it. So with 2 tanks on the burrowers, we have a configuration like on the Paragon movie : 2 spots with 2 burrowers very close to the boss, but at least more than 12 yards from the 2 burrowers of the other tank. But not to far, because of the range of the ae (fok/wipe/cleave/ww etc.. 16-20 yard diameter on average). This requires really precise positionning of the 2 tanks, to make the ae optimal and avoid a second Spider Frenzy buff on any burrower, or he will take a lot more damage. Once the tanks get the trick, your problem will be to meet the boss dps requirement while dpsing those adds. You now have the explanation for the 4 rogues, 2-3 dk's and 3 mages we see in a lot of the top guilds damage meters. Bring only one warrior to tanks the 4 adds. Hey ? Am i crazy ? He will take at least 70k dps with spikes at more than 150k dps ! How is it even possible ? Really Simple : Stuff him with every single item in the game that has block rating and block value on it, while also having dodge/parry/def not to gimped. The burrowers hits a tank for 3k, it is the tank debuff that make it jump to 12k. If you block it for 1500, he will take 1500*4 = 6000, not 12000-1500 = 10500. If you have a warrior with a sum of miss/parry/dodge/block >= 100% with a block value > 3k, he will takes... no damage. Yeah, it's possible, premonition did it, and you can check it on their vids and reports : http://www.worldoflogs.co...Taken/?s=6337&e=6598 is the report of the third p1 + p3. Xav only takes 320740 melee damage in 261s, that's only 1230dps... with 4 adds which hit him more than 10 times per second, any tank without block would be instantly gibbed. What are the advantages of this technique ? - You don't have to wipe because your 2 burrowers's tank don't have the perfect position and the burrowers buffed themselves too much. - No AE range problem at all, the 4 adds are exactly where we want them to be (very close or under the boss). - 1 more dps to bring, and maybe 1 heal less. - 1 tank less that heals the boss for at least 12k hps The only downside of this technique, is the redirections to do on 3 of the 4 burrowers to make sure they don't hit anyone in the raid when they spawn. 2 hunters and 1 rogue can do this easily. Sum of those advantages : less wipes because of burrower's tank death, and the equivalence of at least 3 dps more only on the boss, trivialising the dps requirement. You don't have to bring 4 rogues anymore (which is exactly premonition's case), you can bring any dd, with of course a minimum AE dps. Any good guilds that downed the twins can down Anub'arak with this technique, because the 2 biggest difficulties of the fight are totaly avoided : burrowers tanking and positionning, and boss dps requirement. "
Last Edited By: Mortos79
Oct 18, 2009 12:07:39.
Edited 2 times.
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Mortos79 |
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Decided to post the next part under that wall of text, From reading more into it people are saying that a two add one boss tank strat is a little more viable,
although we should highly consider the block set strat with vyre and stegho to get the added help with healing them.
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kalonjelen |
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We've tried both. They both have their advantages and disadvantages. The big one is that with the FoK nerf, you essentially need 4 people to be
interrupters on each add if you single-tank the adds; if they're that close to each other they will have a 1.2 second cast time on their shadow strike, and
more often than not they won't be stunnable right that second. With two tanks you lose DPS (both from an extra tank and from positioning the adds so they
don't stack their buff but get hit by most of the aoe) but have the advantage that the tanks themselves can usually take care of the aoe stun.
Damage wise a block tank is really nice regardless of how you do it; if you have two block tanks it means you can keep them well below 50% health in P3 and save yourself some damage on Anub. In many of the parses I've seen the tanks take anywhere from 25k to 60k melee damage for the whole fight. Note that all of the adds do shadow strike at exactly the same time, so you can use aoe stuns for that.
"the real-life equivalent of WoW tanking is to pick a fight with a rabid pedophilic cannibal and try to keep his attention while a pack of first-graders
stab him to death with a spork."
Felhoof - Tauren Druid, currently Feral ThinkTank - a WoW theorycrafting blog about tanking mechanics |
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peeks |
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Not a bad first day on Anub. I think we definitely need to use two add tanks unless one of them develops an uber-block set.
One hurdle that we faced as we got through P2 is the transition to the second surface phase. It was taking too long for the orbs to fall into position and then DPS was slow, the adds were burrowing and people were getting ganked. How about if we use the debris on the ground to establish a set tank spot for the second surface phase? If we select a spot beforehand, the DKs can yank the orbs into position at the same time Kalb gets the boss there. The transition just needs to be quicker and smoother. Then again with the 3rd surface phase (e.g. just inside the north circle) to give the DKs a chance to place orbs early. I think once we get the submerge-emerge transition down, we should have it till P3. And I am sorry if I yelled at Morale. Yesterday, when I heard you exclaim "Oh my!" during a wipe, that was the first time I ever heard you sound like a girl, and I should never yell at girls. Unless they're yelling at me. |
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Sparcks |
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I think we need to work on our phase 2 beetle killing strat, and also we could probably use more AE overall. I know that perhaps we didnt have the right
classes / people online last night. Melee dps has to chase the bugs all over the place and has to runaway at the start of phase 2 incase one of them gets
targeted by the first spikes.
Having more ranged would mean we would have more damage on the cryptguards, because moving off the ice doesnt kill their damage, and also we would have more damage on the beetles because the majority of the dps wouldnt be involved in chasing them down. My thoughts from the first night. |
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peeks |
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I think having more range would make the fight a little easier to learn, but if you look at Premonition's raidlog of the fight, the highest DPS were
rogues, DKs, and FFB mages with a furry warrior on top. It takes a little more awareness from the melee to get the burrowing phase right, but definitely not
impossible. If we have swiftness pots on hand also, that will allow them more time to react while they learn.
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Sparcks |
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One giant advantage that premonition had with their strat was the 3.2 version of Earthen Power. If you watch the buffs of the person recording you can see the
buff. It was basically a raid wide Hand of Freedom, so standing on the ice patches didnt slow them down, probably allowed their melee to stay on the burrowers
longer because they didnt have to deal with being snared if the spikes picked them.
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dankovich |
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Since you guys covered most of the major points I am just gonna bring up a little thing I noticed that might make burrow phase positioning a little more
consistent.
When being chased (which I was a ton last night) is there any reason to not designate beforehand which patch to use first? As in always kiting to the east patch first, then the west patch or vice versa. Its a simple thing that may not help that much, but this way Anub will always be on the same path (hopefully reducing the need to scream GET OUT OF THE WAY as you sprint back). The way I see it the more things you can make constant on this fight the better. Also it might make it easier for people who get out of position to get safely back into position with the raid. |
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Mortos79 |
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Yeah I agree with dank, we should always use the West ice patch on the first call, then the east the second time, that should make things very consistant and
help that part out.
Edit to change directions
Last Edited By: Mortos79
Oct 6, 2009 21:20:57.
Edited 1 times.
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peeks |
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Mort, I might suggest using the West patch first. In the first submerge, Kalb takes the boss west and the rest of the raid clumps east-ish with melee still in
the middle-ish. If we hit east first, it tends to scatter the raid.
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Sparcks |
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67uEJO1kNCo&feature=player_embedded
different anub strat, probably requires more tank healing, appears to be easier with the burrow phase kiting. 4 bops |
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Sparcks |
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I posted that last night with out much detail or reason, so here are why I think that strat may work better for us.
From last night we had several recurring problems - in no particular order: 1) Ice patch placement less than ideal in first and second above ground phase - Leads to lack of good AE damage, and also caused anub to eat ice patch on submerge a few times, also causes tanks to have to move around inconsistently 2)While anub is submerging lack of AE to kill off the remaining bugs causes us to fall behind on beetles 3)People not knowing where they supposed to go and poor timing on ice breaking Basically the strat in the video follows this pattern for ice patch placement 3.......5 .....1 4.......2 1 is the center of the room, basically where we tank anub already. The first ice patch is placed there, and stays there the entire time. All 4 adds are tanked on his ass, and he and them are AOE'd down. At the submerge phase anub is moved position 3. the melee moves south of 1 to drop the ice debuff, ranged continues aoing the bugs The first person chased runs to position 2. A hunter / ranged kills the orb floating there. The targetted person stands on the side of the ice and is bopped. The spikes sit there hitting them doing nothing, just before bop ends, the target moves to the ice patch. The second person targetted runs to position 3. Hunter / Ranged kill the orb there. Targetted person is bopped and tanks the spikes and freezes anub before bop ends. He resurfaces and is moved to position 1 again. The second burrow phase is a repeat of the first burrow phase but uses positions 4 then 5. ------- What this strat changes from ours: It makes the AE positioning and damaging much easier. Should mean we kill spiders faster, and that we have more time to kill beetles. It makes it so at the end of every burrow phase the tanks know exactly where to be, and more importantly where the snow will be. No more waiting for orbs / orbs ending up too far apart. It places alot more burden on to the tanks and healers because the adds will all be grouped together. This method also takes the guess work of "turn around now" running with a bop on. This method should also prevent the incorrect snow patch from being eaten.
Last Edited By: Sparcks
Oct 12, 2009 21:34:12.
Edited 5 times.
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peeks |
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So I know we don't like to change our strats drastically too rapidly, but I really think Sparcks' strat is worth a try. This puts a lot less burden on
raid movement, which I think we all know is not our strength. This is why the Twins Doorway strat worked so well for us. The raid essentially doesn't move
and just the pally, the hunter, and the target runs. I believe this strat absolutely does require 4 pallies, but I think it would be MUCH MUCH smoother. It
would be tougher on the healers for sure since the big adds would be more buffed, but I think we can handle it.
This strat takes so many variables out of the picture 1) Where the ice patches are pulled to 2) Where to tank Anub after he emerges 3) Where to AOE 4) Where the raid should stand 5) How far the target should run 6) When the BOPed should run etc Soooo much simpler
Last Edited By: peeks
Oct 12, 2009 10:26:14.
Edited 1 times.
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peeks |
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I feel confident we will see P3 this week. I wanted to talk about how we are going to approach that. I'm sure Mort already has many things in mind. As
you've seen from the videos, P3 is essentially P1 + swarm, so the waves of adds spawn until Anub is dead.
Healing: Minimizing healing through swarm is critical, so the raid HP must stay as low as possible. 1) Resto shaman healing stream - should cover 1 party alone. Aed, I'm not sure if this is with or without the glyph. Mana tide will have to be dropped before P3 2) Shadowpriest - VE on boss + 1add w/imp VE should cover a party. If that is not enough, they could VE 2 adds. 3) 2 non-resto shaman - Their two healing streams stack and should cover another party 4) That would just leave the tank party. The druids should be able to keep those few up. Penetrating cold is a big killer. It's 6k a tick, so it will 1shot anyone in p3. The difficulty also is that the number of targets varies. I think my shields + druid HoTs should cover, but this may take a couple attempts to learn. Tank healing is gonna be tough. Since it's a spam fest, healer mana is gonna really be pushed. The QTs video had 5 add waves in p3. Having 2 holy pallies is going to be a huge help. DPS: It is a mix of burning the boss and AOEing the adds. I've read two different approaches: 1) Everyone AOEs, then boss, then everyone AOEs again, etc 2) A few stay single target on the boss through all of P3, while others focus on AOEs. My inclination is that the latter may be better. Rogues, unholy DKs, shadowpriests - these are the top AOE classes, and this is what we saw last night. I posted on another thread how shadowpriests can optimize their AOE. Mages - arcane explosion does a lot of damage. The one thing to consider though, is that AE spam does not scale as well with Bloodlust as a channeled AOE like Mind Sear. We may consider having them single target the boss during BL, then switch to AE spam for later add waves. Shaman - enhance/elemental lack an AOE so there Juliand/Morale - cleave, WW, DS, HW, consecrate, go nuts Boomkin, hunters, locks - these are the classes I'm unsure about. I'm thinking we should start by having them AOE all add waves and see how our boss damage is. Since they all have channeled AOE, BL should help them. Hunters may be the first class to switch to single target. |
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kalonjelen |
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Dunno how welcome this is, but I figured I'd share. We went from a 2 tank on add strat to a one-tank on add strat, and found it to be better overall -
though not as much as you'd expect. As stated above, it helps with some things - easier positioning of the ice patches (we were having problems getting two
DKs to raid), more aoe damage overlap, and less positioning requirements. It also meant that moving Anub early wasn't as critical, and bad rear ice patches
(which sounds like something Ghillie might have) didn't screw over kiting.
But. The hardest part of this is the misdirecting of adds to the tank. We used one tank, and because of that we could only use 1 MD. Two rogues did ToTT to the other adds, and then the tank was responsible for dealing with the last one. This was very, very touchy and it was really easy for that tank to be utterly obliterated if they didn't have just the right facing or the adds came in the wrong way and hit from behind; we're talking easily 20k DPS on the tank in those situations. One idea is to still use two tanks on adds but only one patch, and have the tanks stack; that would help with the MDs but may make the healing fairly difficult. We also had a holy pally with RF stand directly behind the add tank at all times, so the adds would be reasonably attracted to that area. We're using an unhittable warrior tank for this; if you don't have that or are using a pally that is only unhittable with HS up, that might not be an option. The second hardest was the interrupts, until we found out that the shadow strike goes off at specific intervals - and if the adds are stunned, they won't shadow strike if they were scheduled to. That means that you can pre-stun the adds before the strike goes off, and they won't do anything. It does make kiting a lot easier, and it gives you an extra patch of ice to play with - but the damage on the single tank can be really frightening. You also don't absolutely require 4 BoPs; you can either get lucky with some classes that can get out of the damage for a while, or use things like healer cooldowns/resses to deal with it afterwards. If you have 3 BoPs, you can do it without any other wackiness at all; use two patches + two bops on the first burrow, 3 patches + 1 bop on the second.
"the real-life equivalent of WoW tanking is to pick a fight with a rabid pedophilic cannibal and try to keep his attention while a pack of first-graders
stab him to death with a spork."
Felhoof - Tauren Druid, currently Feral ThinkTank - a WoW theorycrafting blog about tanking mechanics |
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peeks |
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It's always nice to share, Fel :)
We're using OP Vyre to pick up and tank the adds. He just throws everything at the adds - his shield, weapon, his left foot - and with an MD he rounds them up nicely. But ya... the damage is silly. That's one of my big concerns: keeping him alive through 5 rounds of adds in P3. As long as we are using a single ice patch to tank, I don't think double tanking the adds is the answer as you say, and the extra DPS is very nice. |
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Scelyde |
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I got rid of my Protection Spec.
Inplace of it, I made a spec that has 2/2 Guardian's Favor and Seal of Command for Adds (dropped 2 in Divinity and 1 in POJ for these talent swaps). Just wanted to post this here incase my respec could be useful for anything.
"Your teeth are not a sexual organ." -Ryan
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Ghillietherogue |
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You read my mind. I dropped my tank offspec last night and picked up a modified Unholy spec designed for this fight.
Там где мы, там победа.
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Stegho |
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Looking into swapping Vyre and I to reduce add tank gibs.
I'm going to need folks to help me run 25 man ulduar AND Nax this week for some gear. Perhaps even ZG. Knuckle up and help out the team, please. :D |
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Ghillietherogue |
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Immortal run imo.
Там где мы, там победа.
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